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Interview: Weiner On Captain America And The Struggle Of The Superhero

Written by Nicholas Yanes on April 21, 2009 – 11:28 am -

Robert Weiner is the author of Marvel Graphic Novels and Related Publications: An Annotated Guide to Comics, Prose Novels, Children’s Books, Articles, Criticism and Reference Works, 1965-2005.  For his most recent publication, Captain America and the Struggle of the Superhero (which is the book that features my essay, “The Super Patriot: World War II Warriors and the Birth of Captain America”), he presents critical essays on Captain America.

The official description for the book:

For more than 60 years, Captain America was one of Marvel Comics’ flagship characters, representing truth, strength, liberty, and justice. The assassination of his alter ego, Steve Rogers, rocked the comic world, leaving numerous questions about his life and death.

This book discusses topics including the representation of Nazi Germany in Captain America Comics from the 1940s to the 1960s; the creation of Captain America in light of the Jewish American experience [that’s my essay]; the relationship between Captain America and UK Marvel’s Captain Britain; the groundbreaking partnership between Captain America and the African American superhero, Falcon; and the attempts made to kill the character before his “real” death.

Nicholas Yanes:  Your previous book was Marvel Graphic Novels and Related Publications: An Annotated Guide to Comics, Prose Novels, Children’s Books, Articles, Criticism and Reference Works, 1965-2005. While it’s only been out for a few months, how do you feel it turned out?  Is there anything you would change if you did a new edition?

Robert Weiner: Overall I am really happy with it. Of course I wish it was more up to date, but in order to write good annotations for the volumes, you have to read or at least skim all of them.  Therefore, I sat down and read nearly every volume in the book, and if I had tried to include publications beyond 2005, there was NO way the book ever would have been done.  If I ever decide to do a follow up, I’d like to include a few things I missed.  I am surprised that there were not more things I missed, but apparently I got most of it.  The hardest part was documenting the Epic comics and the small prestige volumes.  Some of those fell through the cracks, but where else can you find practically everything Marvel published in book form?  I am glad that I included all those weird children’s books and other esoterica.  People are constantly emailing me asking about some of the items I had found and included.

Yanes:  Captain America and the Struggle of the Superhero has three contributors that state they are from Florida State University, and Jason Dittmer received his PhD from FSU.  Are you trying to use this book as a starting point to get a job at Florida State?

Weiner: Wow, I didn’t realize that—I really didn’t until you pointed it out—and you went there too.  If the “higher ups” at Florida State see this book, perhaps they can be proud of the four of you.  Weird how things work that way sometimes!  Yes, Dittmer has published a TON on Captain America in the scholarly literature.  Check our guide to Cap in the academic literature; his Cap articles are annotated there.

Yanes:  What was the original inspiration for Captain America and the Struggle of the Superhero?

Weiner: Well the Death of Captain America was the inspiration for putting this collection together.  Cap is my favorite character and I thought now was the time to do a project.  Because the Death of Cap received so much hoopla in the press, and the movie is forthcoming, I thought why not at least try to write a book about him.  I may fall flat on my face, and not get anywhere, but I’d seen Benbella’s series of books on the X-Men, Superman, Batman, etc., and thought, “Well, how about Cap?”  I wrote a proposal, put out the call for papers, and now the book is a reality.  The movie Captain America: The First Avenger was initially scheduled to come out in 2009, and I wanted the book’s publication to coincide with the movie.  But now the movie has been pushed back to 2011.

Yanes:  How much did the project change from its first inception to the final result?  Were there any sections that you wanted to have, but never developed?

Weiner: Overall, it has turned out really well.  There are some topics in the book I really wanted covered, like Cap’s relationship to Captain Britain and (of course) the Captain America novels.  Many folks don’t realize just how many novels are out there related to Marvel, DC, and other sequential art characters and storylines.  Some of those prose novels have just as much depth as the illustrated stories (in some cases more).  For example, the Howard the Duck movie novelization is fantastic, despite the bad reputation of the film (which I actually like).  An annotated look at Cap Webfiction was another aspect I wanted discussed in the book.  Other topics I envisioned the book having chapters on, included the Invaders, Cap as a Zombie, and the Ultimate Cap, and those are all there.

However, there is no discussion of the 1940s Captain America and Golden Girl or a detailed analysis of the issues of Captain America Comics: Commie Smasher 76-78 or the two Captain America’s Weird Tales 74-75.  For the longest time there was no indication that those issues were still in circulation.  As far as I am concerned they are the Holy Grail for Captain America comic books.  If all the 1940s-1950s CAP issues could be republished, it would be great for sequential art scholarship and history.  Well I just found out Michigan State University actually has those issues on Microfiche.  They are without color, but all except CA’s Weird Tales 75 are there—hats off to librarian Randal Scott for having the foresight in seeing the cultural/historical value of preserving sequential art and comics.  Even though we at least know they exist, they are still not that accessible because you have to go to Michigan State and research them there.  I would love to have some hard analysis of the Commie Smasher issues.  Again MARVEL needs to republish CAC 74-78 as an Atlas Era Masterworks!  If they could re-print that and those Golden Girl issues, nothing would please me more.

Other topics that would have fit include:  Hawkeye’s relationship to Captain America in those early Avengers issues—I’m fascinated by how Hawkeye was always ribbing him, and then later they were the best of friends; Cap’s role as a leader of men and women; Cap’s and Wolverine’s relationship is always interesting; Cap, Iron Man, and the history of their friendship/relationship; The Red Skull as the perfect Nazi (although John Moser’s Nazi essay goes a long way towards being the final word on Cap and the Nazis); and more on the Captain America villains and his relationship with them.  It seemed to me that sometimes the villains knew Cap’s psyche better than his friends did.  Other topics include: Romance and Captain America; Cap’s relationship to Sgt Fury and later on S.H.I.E.L.D/Fury; Cap in the Avengers—a career overview!; Cap and his relationship to teams he is NOT a part of (X-Men/FF/Champions, etc.,); and Cap and villain organizations like HYDRA/AIM!  Certainly there could also have been full essays on the Young Allies, Kid Commandos, and the Liberty Legion, as they are all part of the Cap family.  Young Allies is touched upon in Ora McWilliams’ essay “Not Another Racist Honky”—I love that title.  I have already written a piece on the All Winner’s Squad in the Gospel According to Superheroes.  However, I would have welcomed another piece analyzing those two issues.  These could still be addressed and would make another interesting volume on Cap.

Yanes:  One of the things that I enjoy the most about the book is that even as an academic I get a lot out of it.  But I know there are people who place little value in the study of comic books and popular culture.  How should Captain America and the Struggle of the Superhero be ‘sold’ to those people and your average consumer?

Weiner: I am not sure it should be sold to your average consumer because sequential art/comics are a niche/genre market.  I do want the average CA and comic fan to get something out of the book.  There is much academic prose in the book, but there also are essays that, while they have enough “meat” for the sequential art scholar, are also accessible to the average comic book person.  Cord Scott’s comparison of Captain America with the Punisher is a fine example of a piece that should satisfy both the academics and the general “fan boy/girl.”

I know someone who is doing his PhD dissertation on Captain America and feels that the book is a godsend to him.  I’m glad it came out before he was finished.

Yanes:  In reading all the essays that make up Captain America and the Struggle of the Superhero, was there anything you learned that took you by surprise?  Is Modok really a badass?

Weiner: I was surprised by how many academic pieces there already were on Captain America in journals and books.  There are a number of items that I missed for the Marvel Graphic Novels book that I found for the Cap piece that Dimitter and I did together.  I was surprised at the amount of research the contributors did.  Despite all the different fields and topics represented, Captain America and the Struggle of the Superhero holds up as a coherent whole.  It works, and so far the feedback I’ve received agrees with that assessment.  Philip Cunningham’s piece on Cap’s view of Guns and Brian Hack’s piece on the history of Eugenics as it relates to Cap were surprising.  Cap did use guns in those early 1940s issues and even Batman let folks die, but that was all changed with the Comic Book Code.  One has to remember that many of those early superhero comics were for the adults as much as for juveniles.

Yes, MODOK really is wicked.  I’ve always liked that character; the concept is really appealing, despite how cheesy he looks.  But, of course, for Cap the Red Skull is the one!

Yanes:  Considering that most of the contributors are going to teach at the college level, how do you think Captain America and the Struggle of the Superhero should be taught?  Should one use it for a section in a course, or could an ambitious person use it to teach an entire course on Captain America?

Weiner: It is funny that you mentioned that because recently I had someone email me, and tell me it should be adopted as a text book for cultural studies classes.  One could certainly teach a course on Captain America, but I think the book also could be used in a cultural studies course as one of the texts.  Sequential Art History classes could use the book as well.  I’d love to see that happen! When you are discussing cultural icons, one could certainly teach from this book and have students read it.

Yanes:  One of the hardest things a high school teacher can do is get kids excited about literature and history.  Are there any plans to get Captain America and the Struggle of the Superhero into high school history and literature courses?

Weiner: I’d love for that to happen, but there are no such plans that I know of.  If someone wants to use it, please do so.

Yanes:  A serious Captain America movie is currently being developed.  Are there any plans to produce a new edition after Captain America: The First Avenger comes out?

Weiner: No, but if this book is successful, I guess I could do a 2nd volume—something I would love to do.  There are soooo many topics that were not covered.  I’ve already met some other folks doing great work on CAP, who were not in this book.  There is a guy doing his PhD on the whole history of Cap—so my book is definitely not the last word—as if there could be a last word on a character like that.

Yanes:  Given that Captain America has always been linked to real world politics, what do you think Steve Rogers’ real world political identity would be?

Weiner: Oddly enough, I don’t think he would have one.  Captain America is the real person/identity.  Steve Rogers is actually the “fake” identity, if that makes sense.  Sometimes Cap tries to live more of a “normal” life as Rogers, but it never works.  His romances ultimately fail; the people he gets close to (civilians) never last long.  Everyone should read the prose novel, Liberty’s Torch, which shows a different side of Cap as Steve Rogers.  It also has a great retelling of the Falcon’s origin.  I don’t think that a character like Cap, can ever marry and have a personal life.  He can and does have lovers and people he cares about, but his world is way more sophisticated than even many of the folks in the Marvel Universe.  He is a symbol, image, hero, etc., a “representation” of America’s best qualities—of what humanity and America should be.  He goes way beyond any political party (Democrat, Republican, or Independent for that matter) or ideology except for the American principles of freedom, liberty, and the right to pursue life, liberty, and happiness.  They tried to get Cap to run for President and that failed.   Cap is above petty politics, but you know a character like Cap does lend itself to good drama and storytelling.

I don’t think Rogers could or should pick any kind of political stance except to do what he thinks is right, and I agree with his civil disobedience in Civil War.  The government went too far in some cases (like the Negative Zone for those who did not want to cooperate).  Yet I also understand that if sups did exist, the government should have the “right” to know who these folks are.  However, I do not agree with the way they went about in the Civil War series, and much of Iron Man and Reed Richard’s behavior was reprehensible and offensive—yet I still love Iron Man.  I’ve never been that much of a fan of Reed, who I always thought was kind of a snob, but I love the other FF members.

Yanes:  When it comes to being an avatar of patriotism, the characters closest to Captain America in the DC Universe are Superman and Uncle Sam.  Why do you think Captain America is presented so differently from those two characters?  In particular, is it fair to say that Captain America has greater resonance with the real world?

Weiner: Yes, because Uncle Sam is too much of a “fanatic,” although he is pretty darn cool in his own right, and Superman, who I also love, is too much of a boy scout—a “Yes-man” if you will.  Cap goes beyond that and always does what he believes is right.  My ex-wife and friends used to make fun of my fascination and appreciation for Captain America; they never understood that CA is not a stooge or tool of the US Government.  With Cap it is never “Might Makes Right!”  He represents the government, but he has been on the outs with the government (Nomad/Man Without a Country/Civil War, etc.).

I have to admit I love those early Superman stories and John Byrne’s run, as well as the Death of Superman Trilogy, and I love the George Reeves show too.  The closest to Cap is the Silver Surfer whose morality is in serving the good and right, and I love the beauty and complexity of that character as well.  Some day I’d like to do a book like the Cap book on the Surfer.

Yanes:  Steve Rogers was killed at what seemed to be the height of President Bush’s disapproval rating.  Bucky has taken up the mantle and his struggling to live up to the legacy of Captain America while making it his own.  What do you think Americans can learn if we look at Bucky as a metaphor for American identity?

Weiner: Well Bucky is harder edged and we are living in a harder edged/darker America, but there is nothing wrong with belief in the good things your country does.  I’ve been teaching an ongoing course on the history of the American Presidents which has really opened my eyes to the many positives about our history and our Presidents.  (We are up to Teddy Roosevelt at this point).  Sure there is negative/reprehensible stuff in our history, and we should not sugarcoat it, but to be honest, it is not all terrible.

I have to admit Brubaker is one hell of a yarn teller, and there is a good reason why CAP comics have been called one of the best of Pop Culture by some prominent reviewers.  It is good!  If CAP had any innocence about his character, it is gone now with Bucky.  But Bucky has taken the mantel and should keep it.  I think they should keep Rogers in Retro-Continuity!—they should not bring him back.  Perhaps Steve Rogers does not fit in the post 9/11 America, but Bucky as CAP sure does.

Yanes:  Your next book is Mystery Science Theatre 3000.  Kind of a big shift from Captain America; what should we expect from this text?

Weiner: Actually, I have three major projects coming up.  One is looking at Graphic Novels in libraries, which is my way to “give” back to my profession and supporters like the Texas Tech University Libraries, where I now work.  One major news magazine (I think US News and World Report) put librarians in the list of the top 10 coolest professions, and I love the fact that I can combine librarianship with the study of sequential art/graphic novels and comics.

The MST3K project is again about passions.  Next to Monty Python, MST3K are the masters, and now both Rifftrax and Cinematic Titanic are fantastic.  I could never have gotten my degree in Library and Information Science without MST3K.   I spent many a lonely night watching the show and laughing.  It really did help me get through it all.  No matter what the format (films, books, articles, games, etc.) comedy is the hardest thing to write—period, and the MST3K writers and performers are the best at it.  If one wants to know how to write comedy, one should study their work.  Although Mike Nelson’s brilliance shined more often than not, one has to remember that MST3K was a collaborative process, and it is through collaboration that the best results happen.  That is also true in the area of Sequential Art, and I just want to try something similar for MST3K and see what happens,

The third project is a book just like Captain America and the Struggle of the Superhero about Spider-Man.  I have a contract and goal publication date of 2011, coinciding with the release of the fourth Spider-Man movie.  Like Cap, Spidey is very rich and complex (maybe even more complex than Cap)—so there is much to tell and write about the most popular superhero in the world.  That’s pretty cool for a “bug” nobody likes, including me!  I’ve recently been re-reading those Lee/Ditko stories, and they hold very well—really great stuff!  Also, the Spider-Man newspaper strip (Lee/Romita) is fantastic, and there are two graphic novels published that collect those.  Let’s face it, Spider-Man is just plan cool.  Batman is almost as cool, but not quite.  But since there is a ton more academic material available on Batman, I want to tackle Spidey.

I might add these are all for McFarland. They publish some of the coolest most interesting books on the planet. I am not just saying this as I thought that long before I ever become involved with them. The quality of the books is top notch too. They don’t publish “junk” and never have. They are open to new ideas and are really the ultimate publisher in popular culture studies.

Yanes:  Finally, if you wanted your fans to add false information to one Wikipedia entry, what entry and what information would you want added?

Weiner: Ok I have a typical answer—Rob is a handsome dude and the ladies love him (not)! Seriously, I had no idea I had “fans.”  Well, I hope there are some female ones out there.  That would be awesome.

According to the biographical information posted about him on the McFarland’s Publisher website:  “Robert G. Weiner is Humanities Librarian at Texas Tech University.  His works have been published in the following journals: Journal of Popular Culture, Public Library Quarterly, Journal of American Culture and Popular Music and Society. He lives in Lubbock.”

Weiner also was published in the Gospel According to Superheroes (with another article about Captain America); edited Perspectives on the Grateful Dead; and coauthored The Grateful Dead and the Deadheads: An Annotated Bibliography (with David Dodd). Weiner can be seen in the film Lubbock Lights.

• For more information about Captain American and the Struggle of the Superhero check out the following link: http://www.mcfarlandpub.com/contents-2.php?id=978-0-7864-3703-0
• Nicholas Yanes is a comic book academic who has written two theses focused on graphic literature: “X-Men as a Reflection of Civil Rights in America” and “Graphic Imagery – Jewish American Comic Book Creators’ Depictions of Class, Race, and Patriotism.”  Additionally, he was privileged enough to create and teach “American Comic Book History”; a junior level course in the American Studies Program at Florida State University.  His first publication is the essay, “The Super Patriot: World War II Warriors and the Birth of Captain America,” and will be published in Captain America and the Struggle of the Superhero: Critical Essays.  He is currently working on two projects: 1) Editing an essay that has been accepted for publication in an anthology – this essay looks at African Religion in mainstream American Comic Books, 2) Putting together a collection of essays that look at Obama in Popular Culture: http://call-for-papers.sas.upenn.edu/node/32305

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