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Comic Interviews: Jennifer K. Stuller On Ink-Stained Amazons and Cinematic Warriors: Superwomen in Modern Mythology

Written by Nicholas Yanes on June 18, 2009 – 12:41 pm -

Jennifer K. Stuller is the author of the forthcoming book Ink-Stained Amazons and Cinematic Warriors: Superwomen in Modern Mythology (I.B. Tauris, Fall 2009) — a comprehensive history, critique, and reference guide examining feminist history and potential within popular culture.  She majored and received a BA in Comparative History of Ideas from the University of Washington.  She has been involved in the creation and deployment of two college courses: one that looks at Buffy the Vampire Slayer and one that looks at the history of comics.

Considering that her book is several months away from being published, the intent of this interview is to have (and hopefully inspire) a discussion about how women are deployed in popular culture.

Nicholas Yanes:  Before getting into your career as a writer, what attracted you to science fiction/fantasy and comic books which are typically seen as male dominated?

Jennifer Stuller: I grew up watching cult and genre shows with my family including Wonder Woman, Kung Fu, The Incredible Hulk, Battlestar Galactica, V, The Twilight Zone, and Star Trek. Pop culture references peppered our everyday speak like some sort of secret tribal language and from an early age science fiction and fantasy stories influenced my ideas about gender, difference, acceptance, compassion, and human nature.

Stories about adventurous girls were just as important. Dorothy Gale, Ozma of Oz, Pippi Longstocking, Alice (of Wonderland), Sarah from the movie Labyrinth, and other young women who embraced their curiosity informed my ideas about women and independence.

I’d never thought of science fiction as being a boy thing. As a child gender never seemed to be an issue, and in high school my mix of friends were eclectic and broad-minded in their interests. It was only as I got older that I began to really notice that while complex female characters survived in novels, there were few of prominent note in film and television.

That is, of course, until Xena, Warrior Princess and Buffy the Vampire Slayer temporarily changed things.

When I went back to college I was determined to look at women in mythology and in popular culture. I was, and obviously remain, particularly interested in the ways women are represented as super/heroic. I’d always planned to be a writer—it’s written in my genetic code—but I had no idea that my career as a writer, my commitment to feminism, and my attraction to popular culture, sci-fi, spy-fi, fantasy, and mythology would intersect. There IS a history of women in science fiction, fantasy, and comics – - both as characters and creators – - that needed to be told. I was thrilled to be able to do just that in Ink-Stained Amazons and Cinematic Warriors.

Yanes:  Your bio claims that you want to be the next Joseph Campbell with a feminist touch.  Is your intellectual interest in feminism separate from what can be described as politically feminist?

Stuller: I don’t see how one could separate their intellectual feminism from their political feminism especially since I believe that looking at anything from a new or alternative perspective is an inherently political act. For me, taking a critical eye to how women are presented in popular culture and at what stories are told about their lives has the capacity to serve as a form of consciousness raising. Often, the greatest compliment I receive from readers or audience members is that I opened their eyes not only to information they hadn’t encountered before, but a new way to look at things they had perhaps already experienced. (For example, Lois Lane as a potentially heroic figure in her own right and not just Superman’s girlfriend.)

One cannot study or write about myth without at least considering Joseph Campbell—and being a Bay Area girl at heart, I can’t help but be smitten with his sense of spirituality and awe, as well as his passion for stories and storytelling. But it seems that women in World myth, at least from his perspective, were confined to specific roles like the mother. To be fair, he held the mother in high regard – - though her role was not also considered heroic, but rather an essential part of the hero’s path—a path she herself could not follow.

For example, in The Power of Myth, Bill Moyers asks Campbell about the father quest, and why there is no corresponding mother quest. Campbell’s answer is that “the mother’s right there. You’re born from your mother, and she’s the one who nurses you and instructs you and brings you up to the age when you must find your father.” But this presumes that the mother is always right there (and she isn’t—particularly for female heroes) and that the hero is, by default, male. Campbell again privileges a male experience of heroism when he goes on to say that: “[T]he finding of the father has to do with finding your own character and destiny. There’s a notion that the character is inherited from the father, and the body and very often the mind from the mother. But it’s your character that is the mystery, and your character is your destiny.”

Bullshit. There are plenty of women on a mother quest, and often with the intent of discovering their identity (Sydney Bristow, Veronica Mars, Max Guevara, Araña Corazon . . .). To expand our reading of the hero’s journey to include female experience is an intellectually feminist undertaking, yes, but certainly also a political one.

Yanes:  I taught a class on American comic book history when I was at Florida State.  If I was interviewing you in person I’d nail you with questions I know no reasonable human being would know.  However, the use of the phrase “nail you” is kind of sexist and we’re doing this interview by email, so there’s no way to make sure you didn’t cheat.  Beyond this, talk a little about your class.  What books did you use?  And how did you confront the notion that a comic book class is an easy A?

Stuller: First, yeah, I would think that using “nail you” is a little suspect for someone working on a documentary about women in comic books (though the term also has a biblical connotation). Second, I certainly have my expertise in certain subjects, but I would never claim to know everything about anything – - especially comic books. So much of that knowledge concerns conflicting canons and oral histories—and comic book fans too often seem to enjoy “nailing” others with their obscure trivia rather than delight in the sharing of knowledge. (There is a similar issue in academia, which is one of the reasons I’ve opted to stay out of it. In keeping with the sexual imagery, it can, on occasion, be rather masturbatory.)

And perhaps this is one of the reasons women have not traditionally been interested in comics (other obvious ones being the callous treatment of female characters, and lack of characters to identify with). Comics have been a body of knowledge that has catered to and been coveted by men. I actually never even stepped into a comic book store until I was almost 30 – - not because I felt particularly uncomfortable in male-appropriated spaces, but because I simply assumed there wasn’t anything there to interest me. (I currently shop at Seattle’s fantabulous Comics Dungeon—listed on Girl Wonder.org’s list of female-friendly stores—though it’s too bad that women still have to seek out stores where employees make them feel welcome. I mean, to run your business otherwise is sheer stupidity.)

One of my goals with Ink-Stained Amazons and Cinematic Warriors is to empower women to claim those spaces, these stories, and these media as theirs too.

But to answer your question . . .

The course on Reading Comics was co-created and co-facilitated by myself and my friend, Sean Day, and taught through The Program in the Comparative History of Ideas at the University of Washington. It was a survey on the history of comics — with special attention given to issues of diversity, a section on panels and narrative, and a look at how sequential art has influenced other media.

The only actual graphic novel we read was Watchmen, but Sean and I also put together two extensive course readers with material by people such as William Moulton Marston, Trina Robbins, Stan Lee, Alan Moore, Scott McCloud, Will Eisner, Peter Coogan, Scott Bukatman, and others, as well as content from various blogs, websites, and webzines like Girl Wonder and Sequential Tart.

The course was offered as credit/no credit, so we avoided the issue of grades and fortunately, most of the students were really invested in the class – - one young woman went on to intern at Fantagraphics. Final projects presented on the last day of class included a comic, a short animated video, and several critical and historical essays. We did have one student though who simply brought in a book on drawing for his final project. I stared in disgust as he essentially paged through the text and told us what was featured on various pages. I wanted to give him no credit, but Sean persuaded me to let it go.

Yanes: Power Girl has recently gained a new ongoing title.  Written by Jimmy Palmiotti and Justin Gray and drawn by Amanda Conner, the title attempts to situate Power Girl as a strong modern feminist empowered super-heroine who just happens to have large breasts mostly on display while fighting aliens.  I don’t know if I’m being cynical or just mildly sexist, but is this really what women’s empowerment is about?  It just seems that in every media (comic books, film, television) a women is only an example of feminist empowerment if she’s really hot.  Is this a fair observation?

Stuller: I’ll have to check this out. Personally, I don’t have a problem with hotness per se. Women are extraordinary. I have appreciated watching Jennifer Garner, Pam Grier, Gina Torres, Tura Satana, Anna Torv, Michelle Yeoh, and others in action. The issue for me is when hotness is singularly defined by a tired visual standard that means enormous boobs and tight ass. That is only one example of sexy in a world of many – - and even the heterosexual men that this stereotype is meant to appeal to might appreciate more diversity in terms of size, shape, and skin color. I absolutely love that Joss Whedon made sure that Melaka Fray, the protagonist of his limited series, Fray, would have “small boobs” – -his words to the artist – - and that she was still sultry; her image having been based off of Natalie Portman.

A corresponding issue is that hot women aren’t just portrayed as having a certain body type, but they are almost always straight. And when they are gay, their homosexuality is presented in such a way as to titillate male readers/viewers. (Yes, I’m well aware there are exceptions.)

Empowered females are presented as sexy as a means to make them less threatening to a male audience. The idea is that women can appreciate the action and power of the character, while the emphasis on their visual femininity softens their threat to the male ego. I can just hear the marketing department now “She’s someone women want to be and men want to be with! She’s an ass-kicking babe.” It’s not, as you say, that “a women is only an example of feminist empowerment if she’s really hot” it’s that in order to sell the general public on a woman in charge, a woman with power, she still has to conform to a specific definition of hot.

Yanes:  After Buffy the Vampire Slayer left television, networks seem to be struggling with how to create strong female characters (for the purposes of this interview, we’ll just ignore Grey’s Anatomy).  Is there a show out there that you think should be nominated for its positive portrayal of women?

Stuller: The answer depends on how we define strength. Strong female characters have always existed in comedy – - the late, great Bea Arthur’s Maude Findlay and Dorothy Zbornak, Candice Bergen’s Murphy Brown, Phylicia Rashad’s Claire Huxtable, Roseanne Barr’s Roseanne, Wanda Sykes as herself on Curb Your Enthusiasm, and Tina Fey’s Liz Lemon to name a few.

But I assume by “strong” you mean ass-kicking action heroines.

I really like Claire Bennett of Heroes, though I’m bummed that she’s the only heroic woman on the show (miss you Monica Dawson!) and that they keep killing women off the series (usually girlfriends and the-morally-challenged-but-reformed-at-the-last-minute villains).

Kara Thrace of Battlestar Galactica and Sarah Connor of Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles were both complex and powerful figures. LOST has Kate Austen, Sun Kwon and Juliet Burke. British television has Sarah Jane Smith, Rose Tyler and Donna Noble.

One of things I noticed when writing the history section of my book, which situated various women heroes in their cultural contexts was that a cycle appeared. Generally, a female hero will appear in a time of cultural need, say Wonder Woman at the start of World War II. If she is marketable there will be several other female heroes created in an attempt to capitalize on a trend. Some will be of interest, some will be mirror images that lack substance. But what generally follows any cultural progression is a backlash. For example, the powerful women seen on television and in movies during the mid-to-late 1970s were countered by women in more normative roles in the 1980s in addition to an increase in the number of male action heroes. In the 1990s Dana Scully, Xena, Gabrielle, and Buffy Summers coincided with what some refer to as the Third Wave of Feminism. In the late 1990s through the early 21st century television also gave us Sydney Bristow, Max Guevara, Nikita, and the Halliwell sisters (Joss Whedon’s other shows Angel and Firefly also featured strong women, as did more campy series like Cleopatra 2525 and She Spies).

With the end of these series, there has been a trend towards ensemble shows like LOST, Heroes, and Battlestar Galactica – - where the women are strong, even ass-kicking, but often take a backseat to the male characters. On the other hand, we are also currently seeing a change in representations of male heroes—guys who embrace their feminine sides, or at least feminine power, like Chuck Bartowski of Chuck. While it’s disappointing that there are few, if any, female heroes on television right now, it’s also to be expected that as the female hero evolves, so must the male. I expect that in the next few years we’ll see a resurgence of women action heroes on television (though I continue to hold little hope for film, and comics are always iffy).

Until then, I have my eye on Olivia Dunham of Fringe – a character I enjoy very much. I appreciate her drive, her attention to detail, and her problem-solving skills. I think there is a lot of potential there for a memorable, perhaps even influential character. I also like Fiona Glenanne on Burn Notice – - but she is peripheral to the main character. I was very disappointed in Dollhouse but will cross my fingers for a more engaging second season.

Yanes:  Your book, Ink-Stained Amazons and Cinematic Warriors: Superwomen in Modern Mythology, is set to come out in Fall, 2009.  What should readers expect from it?  And what have you done to market it?

Stuller: Ink-Stained Amazons and Cinematic Warriors: Superwomen in Modern Mythology will be out in the UK in November 2009 and in the US in January 2010. The first part of the book takes a look at the history of superwomen in television, film, and comic books—our modern mythology. This history begins in late 1930s America and situates various characters within their cultural context.

The second section looks at recurring themes in how women are presented as heroic: how and why love and compassion are emphasized; and why female heroes are almost always raised by single fathers. It also finds examples of women mentoring/mothering heroic women. Section three looks at women making myth and includes content from interviews I conducted with Trina Robbins, Anne Timmons, and Margot Kidder. It also takes an in-depth look at Gail Simone’s work on Birds of Prey and Wonder Woman, as well as at the activist work of feminist fangirls creating community online.

So far I’ve marketed it by connecting with people at various conferences and conventions (the Comic Arts Conference, Comic Con International, Wonder Con, and the Slayage Conference on the Whedonverses). I’m posting publication updates and speaking engagements to my blog (http://www.ink-stainedamazon.com/blog/isablog.html) and have created Facebook pages both for Ink-Stained Amazon (my business) and for Ink-Stained Amazons and Cinematic Warriors: Superwomen in Modern Mythology.

Yanes:  There always seems to be criticism about how women in comic books are hyper idealized.  Why do you think there isn’t the same amount of criticism against the hyper idealized presentation of the male form?  Let’s be honest, we both probably know several men and women that are equally insecure about their appearance.  Why do you think people are more concerned about the impact popular culture has on women’s body image and not on men’s?

Stuller: I’m assuming you mean criticism from the feminist fan community – - I don’t think the criticism of how women are presented comes from a lack of security, personal body issues, or jealousy. One issue is a lack of diversity – - what’s depicted is a stereotyped standard of female beauty meant to titillate an adolescent hetero boy. An even bigger concern (bigger even than Power Girl’s mammary glands) is that while male characters are indeed hyper-idealized, they are not hyper-sexualized. Meaning, Superman, Green Lantern, Spidey et. all may be drawn as muscular and handsome, but they also are shown being active. Conversely, women are all too often drawn in passive positions, or reduced to body parts—often with minimal clothing. This is further problematized by the fact that superwomen, and/or the hero’s girlfriend, are frequently subjected to storylines that feature their hyper-sexualized bodies as the victims of sexual abuse and torture (think: Stephanie Brown and visit Girl Wonder.org).

I’ve seen people try the “but men are just as sexualized in comics” argument in response to issues raised about how women are drawn or otherwise represented – - but it’s a lazy observation. Comics have traditionally been written and drawn with the male audience in mind and this raises the question of what ideas men (and the women who read comics) are internalizing about femininity. One concern is that images that juxtapose female sexuality and violence has the potential to desensitize readers to violence perpetrated on women. Another is that there are still very real differences in how male and female bodies are treated in society.

Yanes:  Finally, if you wanted your fans to add false information to one Wikipedia entry, what entry and what information would you want added?

Stuller: This a great question, but I’m such a square – - people, please don’t add false info to Wikipedia.

For more information about Jennifer Stuller, check out her home page Ink-Stained Amazons: http://www.ink-stainedamazon.com

Nicholas Yanes is a comic book academic who has written two theses focused on graphic literature: “X-Men as a Reflection of Civil Rights in America” and “Graphic Imagery – Jewish American Comic Book Creators’ Depictions of Class, Race, and Patriotism.”  Additionally, he was privileged enough to create and teach “American Comic Book History”; a junior level course in the American Studies Program at Florida State University.  His first publication is the essay, “The Super Patriot: World War II Warriors and the Birth of Captain America,” and will be published in Captain America and the Struggle of the Superhero: Critical Essays.  He is currently working on an essay that has been accepted for publication in an anthology about African Religion in mainstream American Comic Books, and putting together a collection of essays that look at Obama in Popular Culture:  http://call-for-papers.sas.upenn.edu/node/32305

Furthermore, he has begun creating group pages on social networking sites for the Institute of Comics Studies.  Feel free to learn more by going to any of the following pages:

• Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/group.php?gid=46122310763&ref=ts
• Myspace:  http://groups.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=groups.groupProfile&groupID=107838767&Mytoken=6412DF62-BDBB-4297-ADD615AD8C473E9832982324
• Linkedin:  http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=1915726
• Ning:  http://instituteforcomicsstudies.ning.com

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Tags: Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Ink-Stained Amazons and Cinematic Warriors: Superwomen in Modern Mythology, Jennifer K. Stuller, Star Trek, Wonder Woman, Xena Warrior Princess
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